I used to to watch pastors and those involved in ministry and think to myself "There is no way I'd ever do that - the pressure and the criticism and the difficulty of building a community is too much." For the past few years I've felt very much on the fringes of church, wanting to be involved but not really liking what what I saw. For a while I was pretty lost and didn't feel like I had a place. I was a keen truth-seeker that felt that church stamped out important conversation in favour of the trivial and therapeutic. And in many ways I was a law unto myself with how I lived, happy to be in the background because of the absence of any real accountability with how I lived.
And then all of a sudden I was working for a church I'd only just arrived at. When I found out I had the job, I was excited for about five minutes, and then I became increasingly terrified, knowing that I probably had the ability and had done the thinking, but felt I completely lacked integrity. I felt like I had been too much an impulsive loose unit to ever be in a role like that. This has been an ever-present battle that sticks with me every time I get up the front of a meeting to say something. But I've never known God to be more invested in me personally, and in my realisation of how much I've messed up and need Him, he has begun to recalibrate how I feel about myself.
The other side of the coin with this is that while I have this opportunity working like I do, I haven't just ditched my frustrations with church, or have suddenly become okay with all church practice. I still find I gravitate more to the critics on the fringes, to the alienated and the disengaged. I know how they feel all too well, and want to somehow let them know that they are not just heard, but wanted back for their input and perspective and ability to shape the future of church.
One major criticism that most of us young people seem to resonate with is that the Western church farts around talking about the love of God but never really does anything about it. Every community is home to broken and needy people, but unfortunately the gospel message has been allowed to be distilled into a 90 minute meeting on a Sunday in which people sing repetitive, self absorbed nonsense and listen to a 3 point monologue on "growing in God" or something. We're trying really hard to break this down, but tonight in particular we're looking to address this.
Tonight, our meeting will be outside. Our worship will be mowing lawns, cooking meals, offering free coffees, and doing gardening. Our sermon will be giving time to the stories of the needy. We will pray with our hands and our meeting will be about others, not just ourselves. I don't know whether people will be into this or not, or whether it will have any lasting effect at all. But most of us would agree that the Western church needs to grow up, to understand it's an adult and it's time to stop screaming for lollies and waiting for God to change our spiritual nappies all the time. We can actually do something working alongside God.
This is a small step that will hopefully birth something new. Will let you know how it goes!
But you see, it's not quite the same for you. No offence but you are part of a well known family in the church, you have the right connections so your allowed to have a say and be listened to. Often it's not what's said and done but who's saying and doing it. I was an unknown outsider doing a course and said what I thought and how it was for me and I got slammed for it. 15 mins later the person in the DVD said exactly the same thing and got praised for it. Because I was unknown and hadn't been given authority to speak my opinion, experience and words were classed as worthless. Talk about double standards. Churches are two teard systems where people like me are supposed to be quiet and agree with what people like you say. If we are lucky we are allowed to volunteer and do the donky work now and then or if we are really lucky get a little help when we need it as long as it fits in with everyone. People like me and others on the edge are still treated as outcasts. We will never be seen as having anything of value to contribute, quite the opposit, we are seen as the recepiants of your good deeds for which you want us to be eternally grateful. Meanwhile the people at the top pat themselves on the back for doing such a good job of helping others.
ReplyDeleteYou don't notice us or want to know us as individuals. You don't bother asking our names or where we come from. You don't want to know who we really are and you don't notice when we leave. No one knows us, no one contacts us to see why we are not there anymore, even though we were there every week for a few years. We are worthless to you, so you don't want to know.
I learnt one very important lesson from church. It's who you know not what you know. If your face doesn't fit and you don't move in the right circles then don't bother, no one will ever want to know you.
ReplyDeleteOr have enough money to buy your way in.
ReplyDeleteDon't patronize people by pretending to care when you don't. Giving people who have or are suffering false hope and false messages is futile and cruel. Don't use them to fuel your own egos. If you have no intention of wanting to know them, then at least have the decency to be honest about it and stick to helping in an anonymous way such as donating to charities and helping people further afield that everyone knows you will never meet. But don't pretend to care about people in the community when the reality is you have no intention of wanting to know them.
ReplyDeleteChildren like the one in the picture. You may feel sorry for her and want to donate things to give her. You may even visit her and say a few kind words to her. But the people in your church wouldn't want their children playing with her. If she went to the same school she wouldn't be invited to your child's birthday party and the older she gets the less you would want to know her.
ReplyDeleteShe would remain an outcast if she came to your church. She may get your pity but never be good enough to be accepted as one of you.
Hi Anonymous, you sound pretty frustrated. I can relate. I have a huge problem with heirarchical structures too, and feel like it's part of my job to make sure everyone is heard. I would happy to catch up with you to talk about your experiences and what happened.
ReplyDeleteAs for the whole 'well known family' thing, it really has nothing to do with the role that I have, except that I saw my parents model church engagement to me and followed suit. But I still had to apply and go for interviews and all.
As for the whole "you don't care abot us and expect us to applaud you" - well, you're actually just wrong. This shows a massive misunderstanding of who I am personally and reveals more about your own struggles than it does my personal faults. I am super keen to get everyone connected and known and heard and contributing and participating. Sorry you feel like you do, but you can't fix anything if you carry on being 'anonymous'.
Having said that, I'm glad you feel you can voice this stuff at all, I just don't know if you're really achieving anything here, accept being able to vent.
Peace.
*except. Yep.
ReplyDeleteSam, Its unfortunate but lots of people have similar experience to anonymous. My mother played the piano in a church almost every sunday for over eight years. When she phoned them saying she had to give up because my father had cancer and she needed to look after him, no one from the church got in touch to see how he was or is she needed help. Someone phoned her after he died saying they heard he had passed away so was she able to play the piano again. I went to church for about three years and tried to volunteer for things but was told I hadn't been their long enough. The same people had been volunteering doing the same things year in year out and were happy and comfortable with what they did they were not about to let newcomers or anyone do anything. Another church I tried was all a big family business. The father did the preaching, the mother ran the office, the oldest son and daughter were the worship leaders and family friends took all the other roles in the church. I spent about five years in two different churches and have had no contact with anyone from either of them since I left. I realized I had no ones email address or phone number as nobody had become a personal friend an that time. All contact was at meetings never on a personal leval. Churches are not good places for making friends. Perhaps yours is different but convincing people of that is a different matter as many peoples experience of church as put them off bothering to go.
ReplyDeleteGood for you if you are genuinly trying to change that, but there are people out there that have had different experiences from churches. I met an old chap whose brother was raped by a Catholic priest who will never have anything to do with God or churches because of it.
Many people have issues with churches as sometimes their first involvement may be due to unhappy circumstances such as death of a loved one. They hear the promises God made and are in a vulnerable state. They hear and believe and look for a way to ease their pain. They want to be part of things and find God. Being pushed away at such a time by a church hurts and makes you think they got it wrong and lied to you. Thats how I felt.
Lots of people have been hurt by churches. Please be patient with them and try to understand that. Something must be drawing them to the church if they are having difficulty leaving but their experience caused them pain.
Be kind and patient with them, they really are hurting.
Thanks for your feedback too. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there isn't much difference between you and I when it comes to being 'church burned'. A lot of my thinking about that can be found here: http://www.lifefromthefishtank.blogspot.co.nz/2012/04/doubt.html
ReplyDeleteI guess the unique thing about my story is that I now have a role. But a lot of what is coming out of me now is anger towards my own experiences in church and I need to watch that. This is the first time in a long time I've felt at home and understood. In most other senses I feel the same as you do (as far as I can tell).
People start to treat it as a machine that just needs to keep on running. Church is people. In a church that I used to be part of I started to be less of a priority to the people calling the shots when they realised I was no longer on the same page as them theologically. And they wouldn't want to seriously discuss what they believed and why or really consider alternatives. They just wanted to indoctrinate me enough to change my mind. I left and I've never looked back.
I don't know how to solve your problems but I do want you taken seriously, and listened to, because I know what it's like to some degree.
Keep talking, I know it might not be comfortable for me but I'd rather it doesn't get ignored.
Guess you were one of the lucky ones, you found somwhere that made you feel part of the place. Many people don't so they walk away or put up with the situation. It's only a very few that voice how they feel as its not an easy place to speak up, and who would listen anyway. Also, as you said It's their way, their views, their church, your the intruder so if you don't like it KEEP OUT. Your lucky you even got to the point of saying any of your thoughts on the bible. I never got beyond the 'sit and listen' stage. Having an opinion of your own is so not permited.
ReplyDeleteA word of advice I got from nurse friend once. 'The deeper the wound, the longer it takes to heal. People shout when it hurts too much, thats why they have anasthetic.' If wounds are looked after properly they usually heal. Emotional wounds are no different. Have you ever looked at any of the Anti-theist blogs and seen some of the angry festering wounds towards christians and God on there, they feed each other and make each other worse instead of receiving the TLC they origionally needed. They got to the point where christians just feed their anger no matter what they say. No hope for them, their wounds killed their belief in God. You can't make a difference to them, it's to late. You may be able to stop it happening in the future.
Not sure where I stand, guess I'm pretty neutral at the moment. No disrespect to you Sam but I'm just browsing around. Not wanting to try church again for quite a while.
Yeah you're right about all of that. And I get angry when churches point the finger and argue with these people instead of taking them and their views seriously. I don't feel like you're disrespecting me at all - we're on the same page. I want the same things you do. The sad truth is that there are so many people like this, but because they aren't seen as part of institutional church anymore, they're not a priority. Churches tend to just want to keep the people inside happy. Well, I think the the disaffected and disengaged are still important. I don't know how to help the situation, but I can at least try to help my community make the same mistakes.
ReplyDeleteThanks heaps for sharing. I hope I don't sound patronising, and I'm not trying to set myself up as any sort of hero in this. I just feel like I understand a bit. I like what you have to say. I'll use your comments somewhere so they get heard. The worst bit is when people make out that the drop out problem isn't as bad as it is. Every story matters here, and like you say, there is lots of hurt wrapped up in it.
Haha NOT make the same mistakes. Gosh.
ReplyDeleteSam
ReplyDeleteMaybe churches need to define better just what there role is to people who have not been before. I admit I went alomg wanting to learn more about God and wanting to get to know him better and be involved but had no idea what role church played in that. Just listening to someone preaching didn't really do that. I wanted the whole thing to be an experience, something I could be part of. I felt let down and dissapointed that didn't happen and those sort of feelings don't help you to feel close to God or make him feel as though something good is happening in your life. I would listen to a serman and even if it was a good sermon and good worship as soon as it was over I would see groups of people chatting to each other and know I wasn't part of it and always left feeling alone and empty, that was what I took away with me. Any connection I had earlier felt to God was gone and overshadowed by lonliness and emptyness until I eventually associated God with those feelings until I doubted there was a God as I had nothing good to associate him with.
I don't have a life full of moments where I can see God was there for me, I have lots of difficult times that I struggled through so past experience of God isn't something I can draw. I can't go on other peoples experience as it wasn't like that for me and the older I get the more Godless experience I have and manage to get through without his help so think why do I need him anyway.
You also mentioned churches just wanting to keep the people inside happy. Again the church needs to define its role better in this. Is a church a public place open to anyone or is it slightly more selective than that. I guess churches that let its congregation have more of a say, share their views, air their opinions, speak out and be heard work through things together get involved and have their say no matter who they are and what they think are more public orientated. (If you can find one)
What about churches where its the same person or few people preaching their brand all the time without giving people chance to question or say what they think. (my experience) what role do they play ? Are these people what the bible calls 'Teachers of the Law' and if so don't they need to be careful as such. For example, would they be classed as shephards ? If they take on the role of preaching their beliefs then are they in some way responsible for the spiritual wellbeing of the people they preach to ? As shephards should they practice what they preach ? and as a shephard should they go after the lost sheep that stray from their flock ? What i'm saying is, If a church chooses to be the type of place that has designated leaders who run the place their way then are those leaders responsible for the rest of the congregation and if so then are they not doing such a good job if they are not drawing the people on the fringes into the church community and not noticing or doing anything about the people that come and go. I know you can't please all the people all the time, but it would be nice to try and make an effort and please them at least some of the time.
As I said, I always left church feeling lonely and empty so stopped going. I now meet friends for brunch instead and have a good time.
I had no idea what role church was supposed to play in my life but whatever it was, wasn't a good one so stopped going.
I'm saying this more as feedback than complaining. If churches don't know whats going on then they don't know what needs fixing and how to fix it.
Anonymous here,
ReplyDeleteSorry I got angry and judgmental, guess it makes me no better than the people I'm complaining about. Ok Sam, so perhaps you do mean well, but as you said in an earlier blog post. You grew up in Christian institutions, you may get angry and frustrated with them, but your comfortable in them. Probably have friends and are known in a good many of them. Your probay reasonably comfortable walling into a church or any Christian institution. Christianity is part of your life, probably the biggest part of who you are.
It's nothing like that for me. I don't belong to any Christian organization or institution and going to church ended up being as pleasurable as going to the dentist to have a tooth extracted. It's wasn't a known envioroment and didn't become a pleasant one so I see no reason to repeat it. I lived all my life without it so why put myself through something I don't enjoy and don't need.
My husband and I being immigrants thought we should make an effort to get out and meet people so were looking at things we can do together. We both looked at each other and said "not a church" haha. No disrespect to you personally but it just wasn't a friendly place.
I do admit that I have an unpleasant history that came back to haunt me when I went to church and it caused me a whole heap of problems. I don't trust there is a God anymore and don't trust churches. Like the other person said. God wasn't there when I needed him so don't believe he exists. Don't think there is any more to be said.
Yeah fair call. I guess the affinity I feel along with the frustration made it hard to ditch altogether. This has been an interesting conversation for me, and a good reminder of the seriousness of church-burn. Thanks! I hope you find what you're looking for.
ReplyDeleteOne last thing Sam,
ReplyDeleteYou sound like a reasonable sort of person and if you dropped out of church and lost your belief in God then the curch would probably take it serious, someone may even notice your absance or be upset that your faith was gone and try to do something about it because you are seen as worth something to them. But because its unknown people like anonymous and myself, no one notices and no one cares. We know that, were not stupid, we know no one cares and that's what causes the problems. People preach that Jesus cared about us and that we were worth something to him. I believed it because I was at a point in my life when I needed that. Perhaps thats why I came looking for God. He was someone I presumed was real. I didn't grow up going to church or anything but just the fact that there is christmas and everyone celebrates the birth of the son of God makes people sort of grow up with the idea there is a God out there thats real. I came to church as an adult wanting to get to know him. But it ended up with me having questions and not finding anyone willing to talk and answer them. It ended up me researching myself and trolling the internet. The people most willing to answer my questions were mostly ex-christians who had had similar experiences and reserched the bible for themselves. They pointed me in the direction of John Shelby Spong whose books proved to me there is no God. Guess Im an Atheist now.
I didn't like that the church preached that I was worth something but treated me as worthless, so I got angry with it and left, spat the dummy out and proved them wrong to the point that God doesn't exist and I found a group of Atheists that wanted and welcomed me.
What can I say !!!! I'm imperfect and human.
Wow, I can identify so much with what's just been said and yes there are so many atheists, anti-theist out there with a real dislike for Christianity who know heaps about the bible all doing their bit to prove there is no God. I got introduced to Shelby Spong by an ex-Christian now Zenn Buddhist. They all pounce on you as soon as they see your questioning your faith in a bid to get you to join theirs. I do find the Buddhist meditation very helpful as I was a mess when I left church and came out of Christianity. I'm not looking for anything now though. I don't want to join or be part of anyone group anymore. My husband isn't bothered about any of it and my children only went to church on the very odd occasion with me. They are getting old enough now to start investigating for themselves if they want to and make their own minds up.
ReplyDeleteI know what you mean about preaching we are all valuable and Jesus would have died even if it was just for you, then feeling worthless. People would go on about all their answered prayers and how wonderful God had been to them and I would sit there thinking "he didn't answer my prayers, he wasn't there when I needed him, I struggled alone for years, where was he for me ? Why didn't God care enough about me to answer my prayers when I really needed him?" and yes that did hurt A LOT.
The earlier comment about the deeper the wound, the longer it takes to heal. It all opened up old wounds that went deep and hurt. I also got angry with the church and with God and needed to scream about it all.
It's all over and done with now.
I realize that God is real to those that believe in him. I no longer believe.
As the saying goes......
ReplyDeleteDon't make someone a priority in your life when all you are to them is an option...
That goes for Gods as well, haha
Anonymous, shame we never went to the same church, we could have been friends :)
ReplyDeleteBut I guess the devil wanted us more than God did. Lol
Nice knowing you and thanks for sharing. Good to know I wasn't alone in how I felt, I thought there was something wrong with me for a while, knowing others have had the same problem doesn't make me feel so bad.
Luck for your future.
Cheers, but there ain't no devil, haha....
ReplyDeleteJust for the record, this is what I believe going by what I know so far....
The OT is basically the history of the Jewish nation told by it's people as they understood the world at that time. Also people were tribal at that time, all the laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy were man made not from God as some are quite ridiculous and even barbaric so obviously not handed down from a kind loving God. Some were to keep the Jewish people segregated as in those days tribes were taken over, integrated with other tribes and in the case of the Jews, became slaves. So rules, rituals, traditions made them different and easier to keep the nation pure from other tribes. Of course oppressed people being made into slaves wanted to believe there was something better for them so the idea of a promised land was a good one, heaven was even better, and Hell for their enemies was justification.
People had limited understanding of the world they lived in so the idea of a God watching over them, making things happen, creating them was mans first attempt of understanding the universe and where we came from.
Jesus was a man, a radical thinker, way out of the box and years ahead of his time. A rule breaker.
I agree whole heartily with his message but question him being the son of God and the translation of all he did. Take for instance the miracle of healing the unclean woman who had been bleeding for years. The bible says that when she touched his robe he said "Your faith has healed you". He never complained that her touch had made himself or anyone else in the crowd unclean, and there was no way he or anyone would have known at that moment that she was healed.
Should the word faith be replaced with "belief" belief that her bleeding no longer made her unclean. Was the healing a healing of the mind ending her misery as an untouchable, unclean outcas woman. Jesus accepted the woman's touch without considering it making him unclean, breaking that law and showing people it was unnessecary, making it nil and void. Was that what Jesus did that day ? No one would have known and nowhere does it say she had stopped bleeding.
What about when Jesus turned the water into wine. I heard it was the ceremonial water jugs that he used. Did he really turn water into wine or was there not enough wine and no more jugs left to fetch some so Jesus emptied out the water and said use these. (breaking another tradition). This is just my opinion, my thoughts. I still believe Jesus had a lot to teach us about humanity and priorities just question where he came from I guess.
As you can see, I'm not the sort of thinker churches encourage.
Bye.
I thought about this and I do think you have a point and what you say should be taken seriously. If church wasn't the place then I think you should at least start your own blog and take credit for what you think and say. If it is your own thoughts and idea then just putting it out there as anonymous doesn't do you credit, possibly someone else will use it and take the glory. Just giving you the heads up, your an origional thinker, what you said about Jesus healing the woman is new and I think true so I think deserves to be heard. It must have been so frustrating for you in church with these thoughts in your head. Something Sam can identify with. He found a place to get his thoughts out, you should find a place for yours, you are just as deserving as I think you have insight and discovered new truth.
DeleteCheers, but it's really only just my thoughts, although I do like being able to express them. So yes, it was very frustrating. But thanks to the internet I do get them out. I think Christianity has to redefine itself if it wants to stay strong in the western world as people, their thinking and the way they live have changed so much. People don't live by the "fear of God" anymore because rule by fear is no longer acceptable. Also, people have comfortable lives and have the oppertunity to make this life count and do the things that are important to us, so less needing of a better life after death. There is a story of the American cival war about a group of runaway slaves crossing a bridge to the north to freedom. The southern army on the riverbank behind them are about to kill them and the northerners burn the bridge as they didn't want them. The slaves die singing about 'Kingdom coming" Of course people like this want to die thinking there is something better in death than the misserable worthless lives they have had as slaves and christianity gives them that. That's why its growing in places like India.
DeleteAlso people are less accepting and more questioning these days. (The product of better education) People question the ethics and morality of God, specially in the OT where he condones such things as slavery and beating slaves, the death penalty for so many offences. These things are not acceptable in todays society making the OT unacceptable. I question the NT and Jesus as my saviour. What do I need saving from and what have I done that warrents the death of Jesus or myself as a punishment. I have done nothing that a court of law would punish me for so question Gods death sentance as an appropriate punishment. I also don't appreciate the huge guilt trip I had contributing to low self esteem and depression from when I loved Jesus and couldn't bear the thought that my actions had caused his death. I didn't want him dying for me, he didn't deserve it, I didn't think it fair and would rather have been punished myself for my own crimes. Of course I loved him for what he did for me but the guilt I felt about it was crippling.
I now see it as (rule by emotional blackmail) and not happy about the hurt it caused me. So I and others question the authenticity of the bible and is there any sort of God at all and who was Jesus ?
I have to conclude that the reason churches exclude people who like to think and delve for themselves is because they are threatened by what people may find out.
DeleteAll I wanted was to get to know God better and to find out the truth. Christianity didn't want to help me so I'm doing it my own way now.
I see some deep thinking going on here and its difficult to tell if you are attacking or simply questioning, so this could be putting people off responding to you. You make some very valid points though and they are worthy of discission. Unfortunayley I have no answers for you. I hope Sam is pondering on what you have said and gets back to you, another out of the box thinker like him is probably what's required in this which is exactly why the church needs to embrace more abstract minded people such as yourself. Luck in finding the answers you are looking for, I'm sure God has a place and a plan for you and that there is a church out there with a whole in it needing you to go fill it. So come back to christianity soon and give it another go. Luck and many blessings fr your future.
DeleteCheers, I'm not attacking, just being honest about what I think and feel. No point in pretending and saying I think God is wonderful when I'm questioning that. Sweeping things under the carpet just creates a big bump that one day trips you up. Best to deal with it, research and think so I can make an educated decision that feels right for me and move on in that direction. My faith was hugely important to me so I put everything into it, but I'm not prepared to committ everything to a road that leads to nowhere.so I have some soul searching and decisions to make.
DeleteBy the way Sam. Thanks for the oppertunity and allowing me to express my thoughts. Shame churches don't allow the same freedom in groups as proper discussion, conversation and interaction with other people, getting their feedback, hearing their views would be helpful as hearing only your own opinion doesn't give balanced perspective. Cheers.
DeleteWOW, I love what you said about Jesus and the bleeding woman. It makes a lot more sense than what the churches preach. What you say is very credible and I would actually choose your explination over the miracle cure of the bleeding. You have given me something to think about. You should start your own group or something as your thinking there and about turning the water into wine is origional and I think very possibly has a possibility of being correct. Would love to have been in a discussion with you at church. Your pretty out of the box yourself. I think the church lost out when they lost you.
ReplyDeleteCheers, I didnt really get the chance to say any of this stuff at church. It's not really what they want to hear. Haha. I have shared some of it on a couple of blogs and FB. I find none Christians are far more open to talking about it in an open way. I started writing it all down. I find it really interesting but doubt I'll ever do much with it.
ReplyDeleteChristianity is big business, a lot of people earn a lot of money from it, churches, staff, production and sale of books, music, merchandise, Christian organizations, schools, events. It brings comfort to a lot of people. Of course no one wants to hear anything that may upset or threaten any of that. It took 500 years for the Catholic church to admit Galileo was right about the earth being round. No one involved in Christianity wants to hear anything that suggests their interpretation of the bible may be questioned, specially from someone like me, haha. I'm not so bothered anymore, it's not as important to me as it was. I lost my passion for it. It's just mildly interesting to me now.
But thanks for the positive feedback, much appreciated :)
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteIt's a shame nobody joined in with any answers or feedback to your thoughts and questions. I did read that this blog is for the people from Sam's church to reply and only for others to read so that could be the reason. Sam could have just meant people on the fring of his church not pulling people in from the fringes of religion in general. I kind of get what your saying about death being excessive for most of the ten commandments but I don't know enough about what the bible says as an explanation to be of any help. I can see they are important topics to clear up if you ever consider getting your faith back and i suppose the fact that you are here asking is an indication that you are hovering around on the fringes so to speak in search of some answers. Im probably the same. Best of luck in finding the answers your looking for.